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How did you first hear about Virgil Films?
I heard about them through a friend of mine that had worked with them previously and a couple other people suggested Virgil to me for other projects.
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I think it was from the Distributors Fact Sheet. It was very helpful to tell whether companies took solicited or unsolicited films, etc. I also checked Alex Ferrrari’s group (“Protect Yourself From Predatory Distributors”) and I searched Virgil and didn’t see any comments.
A friend of mine referred Joe/Virgil to me. A filmmaker friend, who, curiously enough—I don’t think had their films distributed by Virgil. She said Joe is a mensch. She did express limitations. She said, “Talk to him, he kind of only does one thing.” She expressed that he was reliable, which was good, but that he was limited in what he did.
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Through a mutual friend.
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My sales rep.
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I was referred by another producer.
Another filmmaker—I don’t remember who it was—on Twitter, made the connection with Joe. We just hit it off. We had a conversation with their team, and I loved them.
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Someone in the industry who had seen my film made the recommendation.
What motivated you to work with them?
I talked to Joe. He was a real sweet guy. The projects they had produced previously were things I really dug. They had a couple of really cool docs in the subject area that had come out earlier. Titles I had really liked that were distributed in the past.
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It was between them and another small company, which was a one man show. Virgil has a bigger staff, more of a track record of films that have gotten reviewed, more publicity. They have films that have done quite well, like Restrepo. Their ceiling seemed higher.
It wasn’t like people were lining up for my film. Out of the half dozen or so people I talked to, he seemed to be the most honest and most straightforward and to the best for my film out of the options available.
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Familiarity. I’ve sent a lot of people his way. He’s picked up a number of titles from friends of mine. He’s been a go-to guy.
There was just something about the connection. I trusted them and my instinct turned out to be good on them. They are wonderful partners. I felt that they saw my film in the biggest possible way. They looked at my film not just as how could we put this in our pipeline, as we always do, but what’s right for this film? How could we make the most of what this film is? They didn’t just say they were going to do it, they actually did it. Even when some of those things weren’t profitable, they were still proud they tried. I appreciate that a lot.
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Because they were at the time—appeared to be—the most interested. That was what it came down to.
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We felt like given the subject matter of the documentary and given the other options that we had, that they were by far the best choice.
Well, it seemed like it was a good match in terms of their content and the other films that they repped. It was a strong recommendation from the other producer who had been in the business a long time. I had good synergy with Joe.
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We felt like they understood the material, had a passion for the material, and that if we were going to have any shot at financial success for the film, via distribution, given the choices that we had, they were going to be by far the best option.
What went well?
They did sell it to redactedredacted, which has done wonders for me in terms of new meetings, and new conversations and projects. It’s put me on the map in terms of being a filmmaker.
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They do report regularly to me but it’s just an email. No dashboard. They’re a smaller distributor company. I think maybe 6 employees. Some of the fees that came out were confusing. We had to wait before we got any money back because there were a lot of Virgil fees. Sometimes it was difficult to understand what that was.
The biggest thing was you are required to do your own PR. It was favorable that we did it ourselves…but they don’t offer any PR. All of that is on us to do.
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The film is available on multiple streaming platforms.
Communication was outstanding. We get quarterly reports. We get them on time. If I ever need to talk to anybody there about anything, they’re easy to talk to. Quick to respond. They’re friendly and decent people. We feel like we’ve been treated fairly by them.
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Even though they were great at brainstorming and being open, they really under-promised and over-delivered. For me, they not only were distributors and partners in that, they felt like very honest advisors and guides in the process. As a first-time filmmaker I needed and appreciate that a lot. Every person on their team—I trusted. I’m friends with them on Facebook. I have seen their kids grow up. I just like them as human beings. That was super important to me.
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They’re fairly responsive. We had a couple issues re: metadata, but someone got back to me and was adequate with regards to dealing with it.
What went poorly?
They did sell it to redactedredacted for much less than what we put into making it. Financially—this has not been the greatest thing to have happened.
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There needed to be further detailed explanation about what the process was going to look like.
[A specific story about being unable to secure an SVOD deal for the filmmaker.] I want to be clear. I don’t know that I blame them. I do think they have relationships with SVOD people. They pitch and their pitches are listened to. It didn’t work for our film. But I wish it had.
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I don’t feel like they tried at all for reviews. They certainly didn’t produce. I don’t think they broke the contract or anything and maybe it doesn’t drive eyeballs but it’s certainly something you want as a filmmaker. They didn’t do that.
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I don’t think they did much at all to drive the audience to the project. I think they rely almost entirely on the filmmakers to do that and it’s extremely hard. We were pleased because it kept costs low, but on the other hand we may have been better off if we had had marketing support.
I don’t think anything went poorly per se. There are things I wish that they did. I wish they were stronger on a few things. I think that means having a vision beyond streaming. Virgil is limited. To Joe’s credit, where he couldn’t do something, he passed me on to someone who could.
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I can’t say much has gone well on a lot of things lately. Virgil doesn’t do any marketing at all. I am concerned. I’ve heard things from other people, but my first report had a charge for $dacted for marketing. I asked Joe what that was. He never got back to me on what those charges were. I am concerned. I’d love to think he spent that but I’m worried that he didn’t.
Joe was up-front. He told us that we have to do the marketing. I think he puts projects on platforms and hopes to get whatever he can over the next 7-10 years, but it’s very passive in my opinion. But understand where he’s coming from, too. He’s got a million titles to look after, and he has to focus on what’s working. And in his own words, it’s getting harder and harder.
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I guess that would depend on what you mean by poorly. Am I rich and famous because I connected with Virgil? The answer to that would be no. Was that Virgil’s fault? I don’t think so. They made good faith effort in everything they did and ultimately the arbiter of that financial success was the audience and the exhibitors.
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I think that’s the same for any distributor and any documentary, but do I feel like someone else would have done a better job than them? I don’t think so.
Nothing that was within Virgil’s realm of control. There was nothing within that partner that went poorly. The communication was open. The dialogue was open. You always want your films to be blockbuster performers, I always felt like Virgil did what they could to support my effort. Ultimately, the reality check for me in working with a distributor is, I think, a lot of filmmakers expect that when they get a distributor or an agent—they have some sort of golden ticket. Doors will open. But that’s not the reality. They can make the intros, but they cannot control how other platforms will respond to their pitches. I think that’s something that filmmakers need to go in with their eyes open about. Just because you get a distributor—it’s like a coach. Not going to win the race, but now have a good coach on my team. I think they were good coaches.
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I didn’t think that really any marketing went into the film, maybe that’s just par for the course. I think all the marketing was done by me.
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It’s been disappointing that we haven’t gotten a streaming deal. That’s the major thing.
Did they breach the contract?
No. Everything has been exactly—when you look at the contract—everything is what it is. They are very authentic and forward. Any questions they have, they’re right there to answer the question to explain it.
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Not in breach but disingenuous. I haven’t seen anything on my end, but if that marketing spend is not clarified, I might have grounds right there.
Filmmaker Friendliness?
Joe is a really cool dude. I really like everyone there. They’re really cool. They do their best effort in trying to sell the film. I don’t know what their office looks like. I don’t know who they talk to. But it was a good relationship. I’ve had much worse with another film.
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I think they’re honest. I think they got us written up in Deadline before the movie came out, which was cool. I think that when you write to them, they reply.
While they do respond if you email them, I don’t think they’re very good about keeping up. You have to initiate the conversation. They’re not super good about that.
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They give you regular revenue reports. I believe their books and they share the reports. I feel like they were much more communicative when it seemed like it was going to have a high ceiling. But when we started to struggle with the SVOD market they were much less responsive. You got the feeling that they moved on to other priorities. That’s kind of a bummer. Other people on their staff have been pretty good about communicating.
They’re communicative. They’re very straight forward. Very accessible. From what I can see, they’re honest about what they can do and can’t do. I give them a high grade on their relationship with the filmmaker.
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The team was fine. We’ve had the team meetings, but I don’t see a lot of TLC, bedside manner, hand holding, etc., that you like to have. I think that’s a common thing that hear from other people working with Virgil. You get an email four times a year. It’s getting harder and harder to compete with Netflix, HBO Max.
Nobody’s better. He’s very gabby and you can always catch him on the phone.
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Joe was 100% clear about what the marketing budget was. He was also very receptive to any ideas we had for ways to market it.
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I’ve been in the business for a very long time; dealt with agents, managers—you quickly learn who is worth trusting again and who is not and certainly Joe and Virgil are—I find them to be very refreshingly honest.
It depends on how you spoke to. I think some were warmer than others there. Response time was decent but I wouldn’t say it was the most filmmaker friendly that it could have been.
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The filmmaker communication was very good. His staff was also very cooperative and got back to me in a timely manner. All really nice people. That counts, I know. We did have some good Zoom meetings with the whole staff. Very cooperative and easy to work with.
What would you have done differently?
Generally speaking, if you’ve made an indie film and you just want to be seen, this is a great route. If you are looking solely for a financial return, this is probably not the way to go, but your film might just sit on a hard drive. So, if you want to be actionable, make things happen, a strong way to go—Virgil is one of the better ones in terms of how that is worked out.
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It’s impossible for us to say. I don’t know what I’d do differently. We had this other option. I don’t have any reason to believe [that was a better option]. We certainly don’t have the audience we want [from the TVOD numbers]. Could anybody have done differently? I’m not sure. We did have fees that we did pay out of pocket because we went with a distributor instead of an aggregator. Legal fees and stuff. There was some back-and-forth on the contract. I’m not criticizing Virgil at all, but I’m not sure we’re better off than just getting on Film Hub.
I don’t think so. This particular film didn’t have the legs that my previous film had. I felt like I didn’t have a lot of choices here. I can’t really broach them on anything other than the limits that they have.
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We had limited options and I’m confident we picked the best option. It’s just the roll of the dice at that point. Warner Brothers spends 100 million dollars—but at the end of the day there could be a Pandemic tomorrow and they could get screwed. You can’t predict the future. Given the time, we made what we thought was the wisest decision. I trust my lawyer and sales/packaging person. I don’t think I would have changed anything except convincing streamers to take another look at us.
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I’m 100% happy with my choice of distributor…proud of that partnership. I think probably as a filmmaker, I would have invested a little more of my own money into the promotion process during those releases. That’s not a slight against them. They did everything they agreed to do. In retrospect, as a first-time filmmaker, I would have invested more of my own money in partnership with them.
I would have adjusted the contract to be more filmmaker-friendly, and also wait for another distributor. I’m not convinced I couldn’t have put the film up on platforms myself. Not sure the value add they ultimately had… I definitely questioned the overall need in this modern age for a distributor. From my standpoint, I’m not sure what they did. If my goal was just to be on open platforms, could I just have done that myself? It would have been a lot more work. It was nice to have them do it, but I still have to provide everything. Could I just have done it? Could have been more work for me at first but afterwards, I’d get 100%. I’m not sure exactly what amount of work went into it, but it’s definitely something I question.
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It’s hard to look back to see whether another company could have done better for me in terms of a streaming deal. I don’t know that and there were some other structures that I looked at that were quite a bit different in terms of the marketing budget and who pays for the marketing budget. I would probably do the same thing. Virgil allowed me to control my marketing budget. That’s the way I felt more comfortable with. If I had to do it again, I’d do it the same way. I feel like they did a good job, and the doc film business is very competitive. A film like ours is an evergreen project and we hope to get more exposure going forward.
Any Final Thoughts?
Virgil saw me as a filmmaker and sometimes all you need is just to build confidence. That was really important to me, more so than anything else.
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All in all, my experience has been good. He’s a “mensch.” The only downside is that he’s limited in what he can do. It’s a small company. They are who they are. But I kind of wish he had a little better PR social media presence. He doesn’t do anything there. I know they’re not a publicist. I’ve seen his Facebook, Instagram, and it’s just weak. In this day and age, come on. That should be like a basic. I wish they were more present or more intentional. I wish they paid a little more attention to their social media to help promote the films, frankly. Is that crazy to think that they should do that? They’re selling a product.
He’s great on the phone, great at parties, has the access. I believe all that. But I am just troubled by the rumblings that I’m hearing. He told me himself that things are really tough right now. I’m assuming it’s tough for everyone out there.
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If someone asked me what I think of Virgil—I would say honestly that they are hardworking people doing the very best they can in a challenging environment. They’ve had success with some films and have had less success with others, but I don’t think that makes them any different. They don’t have a magic wand or an unlimited budget to market your film, but they do have the connections to put it in front of people who can get the film to a much wider audience than you could ever do by yourself. In some ways we were very lucky to get someone that had a solid reputation in the business and turned out to be very easy to work with and honest.
The only other thing I would say off the top of my head is that I do think for a first-time filmmaker the waters are very confusing and even treacherous on these film projects. Getting them distributed. What I liked is that I felt that they saw my heart in the project. They knew it was about more than just the money—it was about my care and passion for the project. They were good shepherds of mine and these films I appreciated and valued them as well. I count them as personal friends today. They saw it as more than just a film to make money on. I’m grateful for that.
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Takeaways
Having realistic expectations is key in film distribution, and Virgil must be doing something right in terms of communication, because filmmakers do not appear to expect a lot of marketing from them. This is a good thing, because many filmmakers who used other distributors almost never talk about how great their distributor was at the marketing part. Knowing that you have to get your own PR firm—someone who knows what they are doing—even if you have to pay for it out of your own pocket, is a much more optimal plan than being dissatisfied with an in-house publicist whose fee you are going to be charged off the back end of your earnings anyway. And Joe’s likeability factor also went a long way with a lot of filmmakers, which is something that is unfortunately rare when it comes to film distribution partners.
Contribute
Are you a filmmaker or distributor who wants to contribute to this page? Please reach out at drc@thefilmcollaborative.org. Emails sent to this inbox are confidential and accessed only by the staffer who facilitates ReportCard interviews.
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