Roberta Munroe has produced and/or written/directed over 30 award-winning short- and long-form projects, including films and television pilots. Her current television project, Detox, a half-hour comedy about toxic masculinity, stars cus Henderson, Chiké Okonkwo, Angel Parker, and Brian Michael Smith. Roberta was Short Film Programmer at the Sundance Film Festival for 5 years and her selections helped launch the careers of many filmmakers, including Aurora Guerrero, Cary Fukunaga, the Duplass Brothers, Tiffany Shlain, Seith Mann, and Taika Waititi.

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When you speak with Dawn Engle you are immediately struck by her integrity and commitment to creating documentary work that not only provides accurate and respectful information about her subjects, but that also offers an educating and entertaining story for her audiences.

Engle, and her husband Ivan Suvanjieff, have been making work for decades through their not-for-profit foundation, PeaceJam. The foundation initially received grants from the Fetzer Institute in Michigan, and the Kellogg Foundation for their overall Nobel Peace Prize Legacy film series, along with annual conferences and year-long programming.

The Dalai Lama: Scientist is their most recent success. It premiered at the 2019 Venice Film Festival to great accolades. It is distributed by Gravitas for streaming, and Kanopy for educational. Their current project, Until We are Free, is about Shirin Ebadi, an Iranian woman whose life’s work focuses on women’s rights in Iran.

Engle sat with me and shared the history of her initial meeting with the Dalai Lama, and the impetus for this film, its history, and its financing and distribution strategy.  

Roberta Marie Munroe: Dawn, thank you so much for talking with us. Let’s start off with how you met the Dalai Lama.

Dawn Engle: When I was 19, I had the opportunity to work for my U.S. Senator, Senator Griffin, in Washington, DC. I really didn’t have a political affiliation, but my school, Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan was part of the national collegiate honors council. I was chosen to represent the state of Michigan and I was told later that I was the diversity.

Senator Griffin ended up offering me a paid internship, and it really was like the show “Mad Men.” All of the women were secretaries and all the men were policymakers. I was the first female on the policy side, beginning as a research assistant and working my way up to be the youngest woman to ever be Chief of Staff for a U.S. Senator.

It was during that time that I met the Dalai Lama. We were being lobbied about the human rights situation in Tibet and China and it was right after the Tiananmen Square tragedy. I signed up to volunteer for the international campaign for Tibet, and our very first meeting was in India. I got to meet the Dalai Lama and I got to share a bathroom with a young man named Richard Gere, who told me about his new movie called Pretty Woman, and I said, “Oh, good luck with that.”

What struck me was that the Dalai Lama was the same man whether he was interacting with fancy people or a leper in the street. I kept looking for the mask that I saw back at work in America. I thought everyone had a mask, right? But the Dalai Lama had no mask. He was who he was, everywhere, and with everyone.

I thought maybe there was another model of leadership that would be a better, you know, a moral leadership. It was 30 years ago when this pebble got dropped in my pool, and the waves rippled out, and it just got harder and harder to make sense of the way things were being done in Washington, DC.

I moved to Colorado and started the Colorado Friends to Tibet group and the PeaceJam Foundation, with the Dalai Lama as the very first Nobel Laureate. When Ivan and I asked him to participate, he agreed, but only if we invited other Nobel Laureates. He shared his list with us that included the Archbishop Desmond Tutu. So, now we’re cold calling Desmond Tutu?? “Hi, this is Dawn in Denver, you don’t know me, but we have a big idea and the Dalai Lama said yes and so…”

Roberta: Ha! Had you made other films prior to this one?

Dawn: Yes, the very first film we made was in 2010, which was about one of the Nobel Peace Prize winners who was on the board of PeaceJam, Rigoberta Menchú Tum. She’s Mayan Indian and was the first Native American to ever win the Nobel peace prize. At the time everyone was talking about the Mayan calendar and the end of the world in 2012. She clarified that what the Mayans actually said was that from 2012 to 2032 there would be a period of great turmoil and change in the world, and humanity will have to choose a path.

When this film was so well received, we decided we should do something with all of these Nobel Peace Prize winners. That’s when we started the Nobel Legacy Film Series, with the first one being with Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

When we finally got to sit down with the Dalai Lama and we asked what he would like his film to be about, he said, “Well, no one’s ever captured my work in the field of science.” In all the films that have been done about the Dalai Lama, none have ever captured his deep interest and interaction and influence in the field of science.

Roberta: That is an amazing origin story. What exceptional access you had, and we know the best documentaries are those where the filmmakers and the subject or subjects are connected; they’re connected emotionally and spiritually, and it’s critical.

Dawn: Yes! The Dalai Lama: Scientist was the 6th film in our Nobel Legacy Film Series, and we are just coming up with the rough cut of our 7th film about Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi of Iran and her work in the struggle for women’s rights in Iran and around the world. The Venice International Film Festival has selected us for their gap financing market and we’re going to be there in September!

Roberta: How wonderful! Will this be in person?

Dawn: Yes, Venice are the first ones who were going to have festival events in person.

We were thrilled to be selected, as they only selected 6 documentary films for the gap financing market. We’re working to find a finishing fund of USD $200K, and to get strong distribution throughout Europe and around the world.

We premiered the Dalai Lama film at the Venice festival in 2019. And I believe because it was tremendously successful, Venice really got to know us and wanted to continue their support of our work. You might not know it in the moment, but you are building your body of work while you are also building valued relationships with people and organizations that become a foundation of support.

Roberta: What were your original goals for making these films, and the Dalai Lama one specifically?

Dawn: Our overall goal was to feature people who were changing the world with their efforts, and moral leadership. And within this goal, to capture the effortless spirit of the Dalai Lama and his cutting-edge work in the field of science. No one had captured that yet, and everyone who knows him well, like the people who worked on his personal staff for years, repeatedly told us that this film captures him as a human being, as a man.

You know the complicated, and intense mind of an engineer? That’s how the Dalai Lama is wired. There’s a rich, rich history in Buddhism of scientific inquiry, and in Tibetan Buddhism, there’s a part that is philosophy, a part that is psychology, and then there’s a part that is Tibetan Science.

Roberta: How intriguing! How much of your plan was in place before you got to Venice last year? Did you plan for that premiere to lead you into distribution, and did you work with a publicist, a sales agent, and a lawyer?

Dawn: Well we’ve had the same distributor for all of the films in the series, which is Gravitas Ventures, with Kanopy as our educational distributor. We also have a relationship with the Monte-Carlo Television Festival that happens in Monaco every June, and Prince Albert is a friend and supporter of the project. And so, every year we get to make a film, knowing that our only goal is to have the largest audience possible. From the beginning, we set it up so that there are not “investors” looking for a big cash out where they get a back-end profit. Everybody who contributes to our films does so as charitable contribution.

Roberta: It’s like an angel investment.

Dawn: Exactly. We’ve been really, really lucky to have a model that people believe in. When we were dreaming about where we could premiere The Dalai Lama: Scientist, we asked ourselves, “What’s the most prestigious film festival in the world?” Venice!

Roberta: Yes, so you made that festival your north star?

Dawn: Yes. One of the Nobel Peace Prize winners who we work with has a friend who is on the Board of the Venice Biennale, and he talked to the film festival, which got us in the door. So knowing somebody who knows somebody is really important, but then it’s up to you in terms of how well you utilize your relationships. We hired a local publicist and we saw the interest in this film go through the roof! I mean, there were so many people standing in line who had come from all over Europe for the world premiere of this film.

A person from the film festival was afraid to turn people away, so they actually let people come in and do standing room only, which is against the fire code, but people who were so intent on seeing the film. So that really impressed everybody at the Venice International Film Festival. And, you know, it wasn’t an official selection or anything, but people went gaga over this film and that led to even greater success once it was released.

Roberta: Incredible, and so what was the final budget of the film? How much was spent premiering the film in Venice?

Dawn: We raised USD $1M and we spent about USD $800K to make the film and USD $200K for promotion and marketing of the film. Our main goal was to have millions of people see the film within 12 months of its premiere. We have a fantastic relationship with our PR agency, Bunker 15. We reached out to them a good 3 months before our premiere, and thus the success of the press campaign was excellent. The film enjoyed so many wonderful articles, and reviews, from top tier publications like the Guardian, Forbes, and the Daily Mirror, which helped increase the number of people who knew about the film and gave us an incredible audience in 170 countries.

I would counsel all filmmakers to engage your publicity campaign as early as possible, and like most work in independent filmmaking, you should expect to do some heavy lifting yourself. Our entire team worked diligently with Bunker 15 and reached out to as many colleagues as possible to help facilitate the reviewing of Dalai Lama. We went with the full package and spent about USD $4K with Bunker 15. So yes, a good PR campaign does cost money, and yes, it does take a lot of effort, but for us it was truly money and time well spent.

Roberta: And how many people or entities did you have on board to make up that budget of a million dollars?

Dawn: I would say there were about 25.

Roberta: With the average contribution being?

Dawn: Around USD $50K. But we do have the benefit of being part of this Nobel Legacy Film Series, and every film has won many awards, and the people who donate for the films, they can write off their donation as a tax deduction and also get their name on the film and the poster and IMDb credits. It’s a great way to, with great love and respect, support a Nobel Peace Prize winner who you really believe in. So, yes, it’s a great model and it’s worked really well for us.

Roberta: Was there anything you would have done differently, there doesn’t have to be, but was there anything?

Dawn: I don’t think so, but I do think you have to pay your dues and build your reputation over time. This September at the 2020 Venice Film Festival, we’ll reap the fruits of what we did there last year. We’re so grateful to be an official selection for their debt financing market, where they’ll help us find finishing funds and robust distribution.

Gravitas Ventures has been really, really good to us. They supported us in reaching our audience in our own way, because we intimately know these Nobel Peace Prize winners and their supporters. And so, we knew that this film had international reach and really focused on having it in lots of different languages. It was expertly translated and seen in 107 countries all over Latin America, U.S. and Canada. It’s been seen throughout Africa, and all over Europe and Asia, including Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan.

Roberta: Wow, because of the great work of Gravitas Ventures, and your extensive knowledge of who the audience was for this film, it easily traveled the world!

Dawn: Gravitas sets it up, so it goes live on all of these platforms on the same day, but then it’s up to you the filmmaker to work it, to market and promote your film. We believed that people all over the world would want to see this film as it highlights the Dalai Lama and science, with the two coming together, and we were right. It’s turned out extraordinarily well, and Gravitas gives you that freedom and initiative to reach the largest audience possible.

For some filmmakers that may feel like you have to do all the work, but on the other hand, because you’re doing all the work, you have all that freedom.

Roberta: Absolutely. In terms of the rights to the film, can you walk me through what rights you had to give, what rights you gave, and what rights you retained, if any?

Dawn: We gave all the rights. The film was already financed, and any money that is made goes back into the nonprofit educational foundation of PeaceJam to further its work. For us, it’s not about making money, but about as many people seeing the film as possible. Which is why Gravitas and Kanopy were our best options for distribution. Gravitas got in onto streaming platforms, and Kanopy offers it to libraries, colleges and universities, all over the world.

Since they’re not doing the marketing, it really has made it possible for us to go for it and to market our film in our own way, and our sales have been fantastic! We’re grateful to Gravitas and Kanopy for that.

Roberta: Did you theatrically release the film? Or did you utilize any hybrid distribution models, and how much money did the film create?

Dawn: The film was released on December 10th, 2019, which was the 30th anniversary of the Dalai Lama receiving the Nobel Peace Prize, and a really important date for us; and again, Gravitas was awesome about working with us for that date.

But we’ve never done a theatrical release on any of our films because we really believe streaming is the way to go, especially since we have a whole series of films that we’re bringing out, and we don’t want to spend years just on one. So, we made a decision early on that we were not going to do theatrical and we were going to focus on streaming and the world will just come along with us.

And everyone who’s donated to the film is happy, they’ve gotten their accolades, and they’ve gotten their tax-deductible charitable donation so they’re good.

We’ve made about USD $200K so far, and the Dalai Lama film is an evergreen film that will continue to bring money into the foundation for years.

It’s nice to be free from the obligation of making sure the investors are happy within the first 12 months of the release of the film; we don’t have that pressure.

And yes, we had people all over the world signed up to do community screenings, but then the pandemic hit and sadly all those plans were indefinitely put on hold. There were many theatrical and community screenings scheduled, but then the coronavirus/COVID-19 intervened before most of them had the opportunity to take place. So instead, we made the great decision to host the film free online for the Dalai Lama’s birthday, and it had over 30K views from over 107 countries over the course of just one week!

Roberta: Wow. That is amazing! Did Gravitas also offer the film to television broadcasters?

Dawn: No, the Dalai Lama film has just been on streaming platforms. With our next film, Until We Are Free, Venice is putting us together with distributors who may sell it, region by region to television, but even that type of money has dried up as well. We know that the need for high quality content about amazing individuals who’ve changed their corner of the world is something we have to offer.

Roberta: Does PeaceJam create ancillary money streams? Do you sell t-shirts, or other items that bring in additional money outside investors, and grant money?

Dawn: Absolutely, if you go to peacejam.org, you can order a t-shirt, or a hoodie, and we also wrote a book about PeaceJam that was published by Penguin. But, hahaha, you know, these things don’t really make money.

Roberta: And as you create the strategy for Until We Are Free, with your exploration of Shirin Ebadi’s work about Iranian women’s rights, are you reaching out to the same financial contributors?

Dawn: Yes, because overall we have people contributing to the nonprofit, PeaceJam Foundation, with the understanding that we will be spending the dollars on different projects as we move forward.

In a nonprofit there are unrestricted and restricted donations. We focus on the unrestricted so that we can finance our projects however we see fit. Sometimes a potential funder will come along and say, “Here’s USD $50K and I want you to spend it in Omaha, Nebraska.”

We decline these types of contributions. There’s something in the nonprofit world called “mission drift,” where you’re believing that you’re so desperate for money when someone says, “I’m only giving you X amount of money, if you can stand on your head and wiggle your toes at the same time.” You accept that donation. We always suggest they find another foundation to give that money to because that’s not what we do.

I just read a story about Mackenzie Bezos, who, post-divorce, is spending her wealth on some truly amazing initiatives. We want supporters like her who are seeking ways to use their financial position to do great things in the world.

Roberta: Dawn, this has been wonderful! As we end our interview, what would you want documentary filmmakers to take away from this case study?

Dawn: I think the thing that stops most documentary filmmakers from success is not getting the film made. And it’s hard because you have a collaborative project that you can’t do on your own, you need a team. So, get your go-to people, your key people, your financial support people, and then have them commit to participate all the way through to final cut, festival release, and marketing and distribution. Because it’s all that final work that is the really hard part. It’s fun to come up with the idea, it’s fun to go around and film, but it’s hard to sit in that editing booth every day.

It’s really hard.

And of course, it’s really important to remember that for most filmmakers there is no overnight success. We have been making work for 25 years, and both Ivan and I had solid careers before we founded PeaceJam. It’s been our experience that you’ll have a slow build and, you know, gradually, very gradually, with each successful project, you gain people’s respect and ongoing support.

Build your team, find your financial supporters whose interests are specifically focused on the subjects and themes you are exploring, and then work really hard on your film through to the very end no matter how hard it feels at times.

And repeat.

Budget:

Above-the-line Budget

Below-the-line Budget

Below-the-Line Subtotal

$704,000

Above-the-Line Subtotal	$296,000
Below-the-Line Subtotal	$704,000
Total Budget	$1,000,000